About this recording
Patrick Casement, author of On Learning from the Patient, is one of psychoanalysis’s most original and quietly radical thinkers. This is the only recorded interview with him, offering a rare opportunity to hear his reflections on listening without preconception, internal supervision and the importance of not-knowing in therapy.
Patrick Casement’s Legacy Interview is a landmark conversation with one of the most respected figures in modern psychotherapy. Best known for his insistence on learning from the patient rather than applying theory to them, Patrick has challenged generations of therapists to listen more openly, stay attuned to their own internal responses, and question the assumptions they bring into the consulting room.
His ideas, such as internal supervision, trial identification, and communication by impact, have shaped the evolution of relational and intersubjective approaches to psychoanalysis and psychotherapy.
This interview, filmed at his home with Jane O’Rourke, is the first and only time Patrick has spoken on camera about his life and work. It is a deeply personal conversation and may be the last chance to hear directly from one of psychoanalysis’s most influential clinical thinkers.
Why This Interview Matters
Patrick’s journey from probation officer and social worker to internationally recognised psychoanalyst shaped a distinctive approach to therapeutic work. His groundbreaking book On Learning from the Patient (1985) questioned traditional ideas of the therapist’s authority and has become a classic in the field.
Despite his ongoing illness with Parkinson’s disease, Patrick generously agreed to share his insights in this recorded interview. His thinking continues to inspire and challenge, and this recording is a valuable opportunity to revisit his enduring contributions to psychoanalytic thought.
“Useful insight can only be found beyond the sterility of preconception” – Patrick Casement
What You’ll Learn from This Interview
- Exploration of key concepts such as internal supervision, trial identification, and the dynamics of interactive communication, including communication by impact and unconscious hope
- The significance of the analytic space and the importance of not-knowing in therapy
- Reflections on Patrick’s own analytic journey and how it shaped his clinical perspective
- The art of non-certainty and remaining open to fresh understandings in therapy
- Patrick’s unique contributions to psychoanalytic technique and thinking
- Poignant case material and personal experiences that influenced his development as a therapist
- The patient’s unconscious search for understanding and authenticity, and how therapists might facilitate this
- A critique of over-reliance on theory in clinical practice
- The value of learning from our mistakes and the therapist’s ongoing self-reflection
- Commentary from leading clinicians on Patrick’s legacy and enduring influence in psychoanalytic thought
Special Guests
The interview with Patrick Casement is followed by a panel of special guests to discuss his legacy and his personal impact on them.
Dr Heribert Blass
Dr Heribert Blass is a Psychoanalyst for Adults, Children and Adolescents, Training and Supervising Analyst of the German Psychoanalytic Association (DPV) and IPA, also Specialist in Psychosomatic Medicine and Psychotherapy, and Psychiatry, working in private practice in Düsseldorf, Germany. IPA President, Past President of the European Psychoanalytic Federation (EPF, from 2020-2024). Several publications on male identity and sexuality, the image of the father, on supervision, on generativity including psychoanalytic institutions, on boundary violations, on relation between internal and external reality, on psychoanalysis and society, on time and the experience of time, and others.
He has been in a personal dialogue with Patrick Casement on clinical psychoanalytical topics for more than 20 years. During this time, Patrick Casement’s entire oeuvre has become very important for his own psychoanalytic attitude and his clinical work.
Professor Nancy McWilliams
Professor Nancy McWilliams has devoted her career to teaching clinically useful psychodynamic ideas, especially involving personality structure, to therapists of all backgrounds and orientations. She is Visiting Professor Emerita at Rutgers Graduate School of Applied & Professional Psychology and has a private practice in Lambertville, NJ. She is author of four textbooks (on psychoanalytic diagnosis, case formulation, therapy, and supervision) and is co-editor of both editions of the Psychodynamic Diagnostic Manual. A former president of the Society for Psychoanalysis and Psychoanalytic Psychotherapy of the American Psychological Association, she is a member of the Austen Riggs Center Board of Trustees. Her books are available in 20 languages and she has taught in more than 30 countries.
Dr Carine Minne
Dr Carine Minne is a psychoanalyst with the BPAS and Consultant Psychiatrist in Forensic Psychotherapy at Broadmoor Hospital and Portman Clinic (NHS, Public Health Service, UK). She chairs the IPA Violence Committee in the Community and World and is Editor-in-Chief of the IJFP (International Journal of Forensic Psychotherapy). Carine was President of the International Association for Forensic Psychotherapy until May 2022. In her work, she brings together the disciplines of forensic psychiatry and psychoanalysis to work directly with offender patients in different settings, and indirectly, via teaching, training, and lecturing to professionals from various disciplines, nationally and internationally.
Christopher Robinson
Christopher Robinson, adult psychotherapist in private practice. He has spent much of his career working in community mental health, having been Director of a community-based counselling service in SE London for many years, working with people who might not traditionally seek therapy or be deemed suitable for it. He continues to teach and supervise.
Reflecting on his interests in psychotherapy, other than valuing his work with patients as central to his experience, he realises that a lot of his focus has been on how to make psychotherapy accessible and helpful to a wider section of society, less arcane and dogmatic. That’s been very much a work in progress.
Professor Diana Shmukler
Dr Diana Shmukler is a renowned clinical psychologist, integrative psychotherapist, and educator with a PhD in child psychology. Her career spans decades across South Africa, the UK, and Australia, where she has held professorial positions and contributed significantly to psychotherapy education and practice. A registered practitioner with multiple international bodies, Dr Shmukler has authored influential publications on psychotherapy, including works on brief therapy and supervision. She continues to teach, supervise, and consult globally, specialising in integrative approaches and maintaining a particular interest in creativity and play in psychological health. Currently based in Sydney, Dr Shmukler remains active in clinical practice, supervision, and advancing psychotherapeutic knowledge through teaching and writing.
Interviewer
Patrick is in conversation with Jane O’Rourke.
Jane O’Rourke, founder of MINDinMIND and a former award-winning BBC journalist now practising as a Child and Adolescent Psychotherapist, draws upon her combined expertise to create rich and thoughtful conversations with leading mental health clinicians. Her interviews weave together the personal and professional threads of her guests’ journeys, capturing the experiences that have shaped their clinical work and thinking.
“Thank you for the fantastic interview with Patrick Casement! It is a treasure to have this and I want to thank you for your sensitive and insightful questions to Patrick which resulted in such engaged profound responses from Patrick. What an inspiring human being.”
– Pauline Macey, Legacy Interview attendee